What tools should every relationship have in their toolbox? Why do couples keep getting into the same arguments again and again? What can couples do to break out of criticism?
Find out in this week’s episode of The Learn to Love Podcast, where your host Zach Beach interviews therapist, author, and psychiatric consultant, Dr. Phil Lee about Ending Argument Addiction.
Below is the transcript for the episode, to go to the episode page, click here.
Zach Beach 0:00
Welcome to the Learn to love podcast everyone. I am your host, Zach Beach, and I’m here with the incredible therapist, author and psychiatric consultant, Dr. Phil Lee. Hello, Phil, and welcome to the show.
Dr. Phil Lee 0:13
Zach, thank you so much for having me on your excellent show. And you do so many things that I’m surprised you’re able to fit them all in. But it’s the old saying, if you want something done, ask a busy person to do it.
Zach Beach 0:28
Well, thanks so much for that compliment. And I know you are a very busy person as well. So thank you so much for taking the time out of your schedule to come on to the show. And today we are going to be talking about ending argument addiction. And for those that don’t know, Dr. Phil Lee is an expert in marital therapy with over 30 years of experience. He co heads couples therapy at Weill Cornell Medical Center of New York Presbyterian Hospital in Manhattan. And he also has a private practice in Connecticut, where he specializes in helping patients with challenges in their personal and professional relationships. Dr. Lee is also the psychiatric consultant for the best selling coffee table books, the mind and the brain. his newest book argument addiction helps couples identify the true causes of their arguments, and to fix them for good. How are you doing today? Phil?
Dr. Phil Lee 1:25
I’m doing great. Thank you very much. How about you?
Zach Beach 1:28
I’m awesome. And I’m excited. And I’m so open and ready for all the wisdom that you have to share, you have a wealth of experience. And I just wanted to begin by taking stock of the situation so to speak, and kind of get your survey of the world of relationships. And the intro to your book, you mentioned the 45% 50% divorce rate that many of us I’ve heard before. And on your blog, you cite that just 1% maybe 5% of couples say that they are wholly satisfied in their relationship. So like on the one hand, we have love, which to me is the most beautiful thing on the planet and the most powerful thing on the planet. But on the other hand, we have pain and heartbreak and anger and frustration and people who committed to be a life partner to somebody else end up hurting them in some of the worst ways. So as a couples therapist with decades of experience, what is your take on this strange and complex human behavior of trying to find a partner for a lifetime?
Dr. Phil Lee 2:32
Well, the typical story is something like this. And I usually talk about Dave and Jen as the prototypical example couple could be Dave and Ralph could be Sara and Jen could be anybody. But let’s just say Dave and Jen, couples meet. They become infatuated, which is like chemical flow. There are chemicals in the body. Everything looks great, Dave, thanks, Jen is great, Jen, Thanks, Dave is great. They go out generally, things are really good at this point, they get married, then at some point, either just because the chemicals kind of wore off, which they always do, things start to go downhill, and they start to criticize each other. And that’s the beginning of the downhill movement, which unless it’s interrupted, leads to the 45 or 50%, that you were referring to, and which may get a little bump after COVID.
Zach Beach 3:40
So it’s true in the West, we really have this kind of fairytale idea of a relationship. And I’m reminded of the Alain de baton quote, which is essentially what most people think of love is just the beginning of love, right? You meet a person, you fall in love, and then happily ever after. And many people don’t realize that that’s when the real love begins is not the falling in love stage. But the commitment stage that the stage is where our wounding comes up and other things come up. That phenomenon that you’re describing is that couples do get infatuated, they feel this extraordinary new relationship energy, and then things do start to go downhill over time. So my first question for you is like, Well, why Why does that happen?
Dr. Phil Lee 4:28
Well, Zach, you know, that’s a very good question. What typically happens is things are going along well, until they’re not. Finally somebody says something critical. Maybe not a big deal. The way you stack the dishwasher is stupid. And the other person who’s been nursing their own grievances says, Oh, yeah, the way I stack the dishwasher is stupid. The way you’re never on time is stupid. And it turns into You make a mess of the dishes, you never take out the trash? Oh, yeah, well, you’re always late, you’re always something. once people start trying to find the flaws in their partner, it’s not that hard to find something you can criticize. And the criticisms can become more and more, they can mount up, they can also not mount up, which is what we show you how to do in our book. But it’s not like anybody teaches you how to do this stuff. I mean, you barely learn how to do law in law school, according to most of the lawyers, I know, you certainly don’t learn how to have relationships. They should have graduate school in relationships, but they don’t and people don’t know. And you could say, well, if you have a good role model at home, but people who have good role models and people who don’t, they all have the same problems anyway.
Zach Beach 5:58
Yeah, I’m reminded of you probably know, john Gottman, it’s four horsemen of the apocalypse. And the huge one is criticism. And a huge one is defensiveness, when you’re talking about blaming the dishes, and then the person comes back at them. And I’m thinking about that other quote, that along the lines of it’s never about the dishes. The subject matter often is just a symptom of sort of underlying conflict and underlying needs. So I’m wondering if you could tell us a little bit about those underlying issues underlying problems that you see in relationships that people really need to get to the root of in order for the relationship to improve?
Dr. Phil Lee 6:42
Yes, absolutely and by the way, I’m glad you mentioned Dr. Gottman, I’m a big fan of his. And he describes these relationships that are going downhill is one person criticizing the other person and the other person, either sulking or striking back. What you find when you talk to couples who aren’t getting along, which is a lot of couples, you’ll find that no matter what the story is, or what the arguments are seemingly about, that both people will tell you that they don’t feel appreciated or appreciated is a big thing. And instead of showing more and more appreciation, as people start to criticize or attack each other, each person feels less and less appreciated. You know, I go out and I work all day to support the whole family. And when I come home, all you do is criticize me for this or that will when you come home all you do is criticize me for this and that the toys are all over the house. This Why isn’t it neater I had all day, and it becomes a contest. The people have the mistaken idea. I’m sure you’re familiar with the old cliche, insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Look, this is really how you stack the dishwasher. They think that their partner is gonna say, Oh, my gosh, you you knock the scales off of my eyes. I see it now you’re the most brilliant dishwasher stacker on Earth. I’ve completely misjudged you. But that isn’t what happens if people don’t suddenly realize that. For years, you’ve been trying to tell them that it’s so much better if the house is cleaner, so much time isn’t spent cleaning the house or we should be stricter with the kids? Oh, yeah. Or we should be easier on the kids. There’s plenty of things to argue about and raising the volume and frequency in the arguments never gets you the appreciation and respect that you’re looking for.
Zach Beach 8:53
Hmm, yeah, I’m thinking about just the fundamental human need that we all have to feel appreciated, to feel loved to feel accepted. And being of course endlessly criticized, is so counter productive to those feelings. And we’re in a relationship because yeah, we want to feel that connection. So I’m curious about your approach as a couples therapist in terms of when a couple walks into your office and there is a lot of that criticism, there is a lot of that defensiveness, both partners feel hurt and unloved. What are some of like the first steps back to healing?
Dr. Phil Lee 9:35
Well, it’s important to stop the downhill slide. And it’s important to get back a surface of non criticism and a surface of support. Now, we believe in a very kind of short term, that is to say not taking An endless series of sessions. In order to make things better, we think that most marriages can be made significantly better in 468 sessions, something like that, it’s necessary to stop the attacks, people will rightly point out that even if the attack stop, they’re still angry at the other person, because they are. And what we say is that you started out with a yard that was full of green grass. That was when you really got along and everybody was happy. Then after a while, a plot of weeds appeared in one spot, that was the arguments, then the weeds appeared in another spot, then the weeds spread to a third spot. Now, if you can get people to stop the criticizing, stop the defensive and stop the tearing down, you can kill the weeds. But when you kill weeds, you don’t have grass, you just have dirt. But if you kill the arguments, the grass will grow where the dirt is, if you’ll pardon my metaphor, and it doesn’t take very long, maybe a month, something like that. Feelings are a very bad guide, the more people have been arguing, the more they feel like they don’t actually like their partner. But if they can get rid of the continual provocation in anger, they’ll discover generally that they do because we don’t live in a country where these marriages were arranged. These people used to like each other. It’s not like you just took two people off the street and said, Okay, we’re going to get you to like each other, they would like each other, if you could kill the weeds.
Zach Beach 11:47
I love this metaphor that your relationship is a garden, right? So of course, you want to give your attention and light and nutrients to plants and things that you want to grow and pull out the weeds as soon as you see them. So I’m kind of curious, like, where those weeds come from, in your book ending argument addiction. If you ask anybody, if they want to be arguing with their partner, they’re going to say no, if you ask anybody, if being addicted to arguing is a good thing, again, this is gonna be a big No. So why are these things that nobody wants in a relationship? Nobody values? Why are these things continually reoccurring in our relationship?
Dr. Phil Lee 12:29
the arguments continually reoccur as each person becomes more and more frustrated with the other person’s failure to see what they’re trying to get across, whatever that happens to be. And the more that they feel criticized, the more they feel put down, the more they feel unappreciated, the less happy they are with the relationship. And if you don’t do something about this stuff, then you have a good chance of ending up in the 45 50%. But there’s absolutely no need to end up in the 45 50%. In fact, there’s no need to end up in the group that doesn’t get divorced, but isn’t happy with each other, and now are 1% or 5%, of totally completely satisfied with the relationship is a pretty high bar. But think the relationship is good or better than than anything else would be. That’s not such a high bar you can get there.
Zach Beach 13:31
Well, that’s hopeful. So we have our garden. And what I’m hearing from you is we almost want to like starve the weeds like get rid of the negativity, stop the criticism, stop the defensiveness. And then when the weeds are gone, we can think about planting the seeds that we want to grow. I’ll continue with this metaphor, because I’m curious about like the nutrients in the soil. Like how are things grow? What are the practices? What tools do you find yourself introducing bringing more often into your clients lives because a huge part of the impetus behind this podcast was what you mentioned earlier, that we aren’t taught how to love and how to be in successful unhappy relationships. So I’m curious if you were teaching a love school, what would be some things that you would want people to know?
Dr. Phil Lee 14:21
One of the most important things to know is that the reason people are nice to each other who are happily married is not the same reason that people are nice to each other when they’re first going out. When you’re first going out with someone, you don’t say a bunch of critical stuff, because you want to have a second date and it’s terrible politics and start telling people all the things that’s wrong with them. In addition to which you don’t see them so clearly because you’re infatuated you have the infatuation chemicals, you really want the person to like you, in any case, the weeds That you’re talking about the criticism is not there. Because in my David and Jennifer example, David doesn’t want Jennifer to think badly of him. And Jennifer doesn’t want David to think badly of her because they want to go out again, they want to get to know each other better. After people have been married for a while, and they’ve started arguing, they don’t care so much what the other person thinks they think the other person already doesn’t like them. And they’re going to show them where they’re wrong. And they’re each trying to show each other where the other one is wrong. Now, people who are happily married, don’t say things that hurt their partners, but they do it for a different reason from the David and Jennifer, when they’re first going out. David doesn’t want Jennifer to think badly of them. And Jennifer doesn’t want David to think badly of her. So they stay away from critical stuff. People who are happily and I can’t stress this enough. People who are happily married, don’t say hurtful things, because they don’t want their partner to feel bad. Which is the opposite of people who are arguing they do want their partner to feel bad, they think their partner deserves to feel bad. And they’re going to punish them with with their criticisms. People who are happily married are casting about for a way that they can get across whatever is important, without making their partner feel bad. That’s what marriages that are getting better instead of getting worse and up at because they’re always getting better or getting worse.
Zach Beach 16:33
I really enjoy that advice. So people who are happily married, they don’t say hurtful things, because they don’t want their partner to feel bad, which seems very intuitive, right? Like, obviously, you care about your partner. So you’re not going to say things that would hurt them. And I feel like earlier when you mentioned the dishes, or you mentioned the criticism, like behind that is sort of a desire to improve like a sort of a, you know, like the house is a mess, I might criticize you because I want a clean house. And maybe you did leave a mess and you didn’t clean it up. So I’m curious about how do we bring up issues? How do we bring up things that we think need to be fixed without having our partner feel bad, or without turning into blame and criticism?
Dr. Phil Lee 17:17
Well, one important thing and I want to give Dr. Gottman credit for articulating, this is what he calls softened startup, which turns out to be instead of Jesus, did you ever take out the trash? Turns out to be instead? Hi, honey, could could you do me a favor and take out the trash? Now, people might tell you, Oh, that’s so silly. Why do I have to tiptoe around the trash, he should have taken it out himself already, you know, or she should have taken it out or whatever, looking for a way to put the other person down. But the truth of the matter is that people aren’t as concerned about the trash and the this and the that is they are about I mean, people aren’t getting along, as they are about showing the other person that they’re no good. And the more time you spend trying to show the other person that they’re no good, the more that’s all you can see. We refer to what this famous drawing that’s either an empty vase or two people looking at each other. Are you familiar with this? And we liken the two people looking at each other to the happily married couple and the empty vase as the people who see their partner contributing nothing. The picture is whichever one it’s not that it’s an empty vase. And it’s not that it’s two people looking at each other. But if you’re looking for two people looking at each other, that’s what you’ll see. And if you’re looking for an empty vase, that’s what you’ll see. and, by extension, in these marriages, where people aren’t getting along, they’re looking for the stuff that they don’t like, and they think that’s all there is that that’s what they see. The people who are happily married, are looking for the good things that their partner did. a caricature kind of example that we sometimes give is, Jen sends David out to the store to get lemons and peanut butter. And David stops at the store. He gets the lemons. Maybe he gets some other things that were on the list, but he forgets the peanut butter in the happily married family. It’s well okay, that’s great. You got the lemons. Thank you very much. Don’t worry about it. We’ll get the peanut butter another time. In the unhappily married group. It’s you forgot the peanut butter. That’s little Willie’s favorite. What was the matter with you? What were you thinking? You see the good or you see the bad depending on what you’re looking for. And there’s a kind of momentum to this stuff, the better you’re getting along the more good stuff. You can see the worse you’re getting along the more bad stuff you can see.
Zach Beach 19:56
Absolutely. I’m reminded of a phrase which is often read peated in meditation communities who are really focused on developing positive mental states, and the phrase is that when a pickpocket sees a saint, he only sees the saints pockets.
Dr. Phil Lee 20:14
I like that.
Zach Beach 20:15
So I’m hearing you talk about in negative relationships, people are focused on the negativity and it almost puts them in like a spiral. You notice an activity, you bring it up, you blame the person that brings up more negativity, while the people in happy relationships are continually looking for the good things and pointing those those out and pointing out the things that they appreciate. And it turns into a more positive spiral.
Dr. Phil Lee 20:40
That’s exactly right.
Zach Beach 20:42
So I want to go back to a couple of things that you’ve already mentioned. Because one thing you said was the vaes illusion, and it can really help a lot of couples, I think, to realize that they’re not trying to agree on one objective reality, but that there’s two subjective realities. And earlier, you mentioned that arguments continued when the other person continued to not see what they are trying to get across, which to me is just I just think about the arguments continue, because you haven’t won them yet.
Dr. Phil Lee 21:17
Yeah, well, they’re gonna continue, because you’re never gonna win.
Zach Beach 21:20
Well, yesterday, I didn’t prove my point. So let me try again today.
Dr. Phil Lee 21:24
Yeah, this time, it’ll work.
Zach Beach 21:25
Yeah, it doesn’t work. So you’re actually right in your book, that our task is not to win an argument, but to not even get to them in the first place. So how do we do that? How do we avoid getting into arguments?
Dr. Phil Lee 21:40
Well, that is a tremendously important point. There are therapies that we called Judge Judy therapies where people come and they tell you something, they tell some therapist some argument that they had. And the therapist says, Well, yes, Jen, you’re right. And Jen, thanks. What a great therapist. And Dave, thanks, we sent this fool for. But then maybe there’s another argument and the therapist says all day, you know, you got a point there, the therapist in the David’s like, therapist, not so bad. Jen is like what’s with the staff, and go on like that. But our point of view isn’t who’s right in arguments, because the subtitle of our book, in fact, is even when you win, you lose winning arguments doesn’t get you anything. The question is, how could you have avoided having that argument? That’s the great key. Happily married people don’t have so many arguments. People will say, oh, but it’s very important to argue, you know, I don’t know about that. I think there’s substantive issues on which people can express varying opinions, and try to find a solution that doesn’t make their partner too unhappy, but gets them what they want. And if their partner’s doing the same thing. You know, it won’t really be an argument in the sense of the underlying you’re no good because no, you’re no good, because it’ll be, well, how can we arrange this? I get enough of what I want, and you get enough of what you want. So that we’re both reasonably happy,
Zach Beach 23:25
Yeah. When you said that winning arguments doesn’t get you anything. My first thought was, well, it gives me a feeling of superiority.
Dr. Phil Lee 23:36
People who are arguing already have a feeling of superiority, they just, they’re just dealing with the one blind person who can’t see it. You know, they tell their mother, they tell their friends they tell you know, and she does it. Oh, and he’s, you know, and, you know, the guys in the bar, and the friends are like, Oh, that’s terrible. The woman’s in the bar somewhere. And her friends are like, oh, that guy’s really bad. But that doesn’t really do anybody any good. What does good is to get rid of the weeds and grow the grass.
Zach Beach 24:13
I’m always curious, you mentioned avoiding being the Judge Judy therapist, and not to take sides because that most likely that couples not going to want to see you again if they always feel like you’re taking one person side. But I do wonder about those circumstances where it’s very clear that one person is in the right, so to speak, and one person is in the wrong.
Dr. Phil Lee 24:36
Oh, that’s a hard one. Although, I’d say there’s usually enough to go around.
Zach Beach 24:46
totally random example. But just imagining like one partner is very jealous, and they tell the other partner that they need to discontinue a relationship with the friend of the opposite sex, because they’re too close. Close and they feel threatened. And I’m wondering, in the therapists office, when somebody is like doing behavior that you wouldn’t want to really encourage too much. How do you overcome such a challenge?
Dr. Phil Lee 25:14
Well, you know that that’s that’s a tremendously interesting question. One of the things that often happens in that situation is, who do you want to make it David or Jennifer, who’s having the friendship?
Zach Beach 25:27
do Dave.
Dr. Phil Lee 25:29
That would be traditional to do, Dave. Usually, often they’re doing something that contributes to what they’re characterizing as overly suspicious and controlling behavior by their unreasonably jealous partner, that that would be Dave story, I think here. But often what happens is, in order to deflect this unfounded and unfair attack, David tries not to mention these occasions when he’s talking to Carol or whoever she is, tries to minimize them tries to not have them come up, because he knows that they’re innocent, but Jennifer will never see it that way. And if Jennifer says, You know, I think Carol’s kind of got a thing for you. He’ll be like, Oh, no, no, no, no, no, absolutely not. No, you’re completely miss reading it. When in fact, Carol does have a little bit of a thing for him, and he’s not interested and not going to respond to it. This is a little bit like one of the most common marital arguments, which is the inlaw argument, in which David says to Jennifer, that her mother is horrible. And Jennifer says, Oh, no, she’s really wonderful. She’s the greatest. And David is like, Don’t you see it? Don’t you see she’s doing this? Don’t you see that? Jennifer’s like, I don’t know why you’re always attacking my mother. She’s great. But the attack is fueled by the other person’s refusal to see it. So if Jennifer simply says, Yeah, you’re right, she’s really horrible. But she’s my mother, and I’m stuck with her. So I appreciate your support. Everything will be okay. He’ll be like, okay, she gets it. All right. Okay. Again, with the innocent friend, particularly opposite sex or sexual attraction, friend, often the other person does want something more. But if the partner will say, yeah, you know, yeah, yeah, I think she’s coming on to me to, the whole thing will die out. If the person is clear and open doesn’t say or do anything that they wouldn’t want to see on TV. And anytime the other person texts or emails is upfront, with the partner, things will go much better. The sense that things are hidden, or unseen, is a real fuel to that kind of disagreement.
Zach Beach 28:10
Yeah, I’m almost imagining this little Judo move. You take some responsibility, right? You know, you’re like, hey, I’ve been noticing you’ve been a little close with your coworker. And you say, Oh, well, actually, yeah, we have been talking more often. But don’t worry, we’re not hiding anything. Like, look, here’s the text or something like that, where you acknowledge how your partner’s feeling you take some responsibility for it, and then you go right to a solution of just being honest with each other.
Dr. Phil Lee 28:41
Yeah, and nothing hidden. The work person wants to have dinner while you’re invited. You know, I don’t want to come okay, but Welcome to comments, if you do to change your mind, you know, we’re gonna be at melons, you know, whatever it is, you just transparency will be very helpful and obscuring things will not I probably should have mentioned in terms of stopping arguing the nuclear disarmament problem, which is, well, if I stop criticizing, and my partner redoubles they’re criticizing, I’ll feel old, walked over and downtrodden. You know, we can’t throw away our nuclear weapons because then the Russians will blow just a bit. The both people have to disarm. And I think, you know, it’s part of the therapists job to see that they do. You’re not going to get just one person to stop criticizing.
Zach Beach 29:39
I’m curious, that process of disarming that you mentioned.
Dr. Phil Lee 29:47
Meeting Geneva, big table,
Zach Beach 29:49
and I know there’s different tools. I’ve heard of therapists who establish what they call a negative free zone in the office. We’ve also talked in the show about different tools. Like I stated Men, so in nonviolent communication, but I’m wondering, again, what that disarmament process looks like when you do have a couple in a relationship gearing up for battle. How do you get them to drop their weapons?
Dr. Phil Lee 30:13
a certain amount of couples therapy is sales, you’re trying to sell, stopping being critical, it’s an important thing to get across to both people. And, you know, you can say it’s like, one of these corporate exercises where one person falls backwards and the rest of the team catches the person. Okay? It’s not going to work if one person falls backwards and the other person doesn’t catch them. And in terms of stopping, criticizing, stopping, criticizing isn’t going to work. If one person stops criticizing, when they fall backwards, the other person doesn’t catch them. That’ll be the end of that. People will tell you, I can’t this stuff is so alarming. It triggers me so much I can’t stand to see that mess, whatever that they will tell you. But you can point out to them what is perfectly true, which is that at work in school, all their lives, people have done things which were annoying, or troubling. And they have grinned and bared it, they have put up with it, they have the muscles to not react, they just don’t feel like they should have to at home. And you tell them what my mother used to say to me, which is just people like, which seem to apply to everybody. But her, she used to say if you don’t have something nice to say, don’t say anything. And it’s amazing how much better the weeds will get in a week or two. If you follow that advice. This is a rule you can use to apply to the things you say to your partner, don’t say or do anything that will make your partner feel bad. No, everybody has enough IQ to say to themselves when I say that, will that make my partner feel bad. And I understand that you can then say, well, they deserve to feel bad. But the homework is don’t say or do anything that will make your partner feel bad. People can do that. People can do it, and things can get better. And the better things get the momentum picks up and the better things get. And people are generally very happy to be back in a happy relationship as they should be.
Zach Beach 32:45
Yeah, you’ve already brought up so many positive qualities that we really want to think about bringing into our relationships as much as possible transparency, responsibility, honesty, openness. And then finally, just this idea of being nice and polite, and kind to each other, can be so helpful. And you do write in your book about three rules for a happy marriage. And I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about those three rules?
Dr. Phil Lee 33:15
Well, I’d be delighted. The first one I did just mentioned, which is don’t say or do anything that will make your partner feel bad. The others are variations. Think of yourself as a stock in which your partner is a significant 50% shareholder. And you want your stock to go up and not down. And every time you say or do anything, your stock goes up or it goes down. If you just keep it going up, you’ll be fine. And third thing we like to say, which is a different way of saying it, you really got to pick the one that works best for you. Every moment, your partner is thinking to themselves every time you say or do anything, your partner is either thinking, gee, I’m glad I married that person. Or what was I thinking when I married that person? And obviously, you want to only say or do things that lead to Gee, I’m glad I married that person. And I mean, I say married but could be relationship could be anything. If you just did that. If everyone just did that for a week, but both people would have to do it. Everything would be solved, you wouldn’t really need anything else.
Zach Beach 34:41
So I love that rule number two to think of yourself as a stock and your partner has a vested interest in your stock going up. I love all the metaphors so I’m gonna keep keep it going. So what actions increase the value of your shareholders
Dr. Phil Lee 34:58
Yeah, your stock goes up when people are like, Oh, well, you know, what a great guy and your stock goes down when people are like, What a jerk. And if you spend your time making your partner feel bad, your partner is going to be saying what a jerk to themselves. And if you spend your time seeing the glass half full, a lot of stuff is the glass half full versus the glass half empty. People who really aren’t getting along, even if the glass is seven eighths full, they find the one eighth that isn’t there. The shopping list was as long as your arm still, it’s the peanut butter. You forgot the peanut butter. You know, I don’t know what’s the matter with you? Huh? You’re beyond belief. There you go. Again, these are stock lowers.
Zach Beach 35:46
So think nice things, say nice things, do nice things. Be polite kind to each other.
Dr. Phil Lee 35:53
Sounds easy doesn’t it
Zach Beach 35:54
Yeah, I was gonna say its not quite rocket science over here.
Dr. Phil Lee 35:58
You just got to remember that when when the arguments start to get less the grass hasn’t grown over the dead dirt yet. So the impetus, the emotional impetus, to be nice follows this. If you do this stuff for a few weeks, you’ll suddenly start to remember Oh, I really do like that person, because you did really like that person. Before things started going downhill. Philip Roth has a great line. Everybody knows the sound of a nail being driven into a coffin. But what’s the sound of a nail being pulled out of a coffin. And what you’re basically doing is pulling all the nails out of the coffin, and bringing the relationship back to life. How’s that for a metaphor?
Zach Beach 36:48
I’ll add it to the list. I’m thinking about relationships continuously getting better over time, and how we can ensure that happens like so far we’ve been talking about the relationship was really good. And then it went downhill, it’s dead. It’s in the coffin. And now we want to revive it. But you know, would be great if it didn’t go downhill at all. And it would be great if our relationship just grew and got better over time. So I’m thinking it’s probably gonna be the same thing we’ve already talked about. But what are those things we want to do and continue to do to not go downhill but to always head uphill?
Dr. Phil Lee 37:28
Well, you know, that’s an excellent question because we meant our book and not just for people who had already gone downhill. But even as a, you can avoid going downhill. You don’t have to go downhill. No one teaches you how to do this. It’s not that hard. But it’s not native knowledge either. It seems natural to have the increase, increase increase crescendo of criticism, but it’s not necessary to have it. And you can avoid having it in the first place. When the infatuation chemicals, which is kind of like going to the crack den, you know, you go to the crack den, you have a wonderful time, everybody’s great. Then when the crack wears off, everybody has rotting teeth and it’s horrible. The infatuation stage, the chemicals aren’t as strong as the crack in the crack den. And when they eventually evaporate, which they always do, after days, weeks, months, whatever. Sometimes they’re prolonged by living in different cities, and but eventually the chemicals go away, you’re left with whatever you’re left with. The question is, can you go from there, if you and your partner go out one night and on cinco demayo, and drink a lot of tequila and have a great time. The next morning, you may not be having such a great time. You may even have a little bit of a hangover. But you’re going to know that last night, having a great time feeling jolly came out of a bottle. You’re not going to blame your partner because you don’t feel that good today. But when the infatuation chemicals evaporate, people are like, well, Jen used to make me feel really good, but it doesn’t make me feel that good now. And Jen is like, you know, Dave used to make me feel good, but you know, it’s really annoying how he leaves his socks all over the floor. You know, nobody says, oh, gee, I have a hangover from all those infatuation chemicals going away. They say Oh, much worse than I is. Now. I see what it really is. Remember that the infatuation chemicals are you know, just like the tequila that came out of a bottle. It may have made you jolly but now you got to get on with your life and not take it out on each other as the reason that you’re not feeling quite As good as you did in the first place.
