How can we become aware of belief systems that aren’t serving us? How do we construct more positive ideologies? What would a new understanding of what the Bible and Christianity say about sex and relationships look like?
Find out in this week’s episode of The Learn to Love Podcast, where your host Zach Beach interviews the relationship coach, podcast host, and author Kat Harris on Deconstructing Negative Ideologies.
Below is the transcript for the episode, to go to the episode page, click here. This is not a perfect transcript, there may be typos and other grammatical mistakes.
[00:00:28]Zach Beach: [00:00:28] Welcome. To the learn to love podcast, everyone. I am your host Zach beach, and I’m here with the incredible relationship coach podcast, host and author Kat Harris. Hello, cat, and welcome to the show.
[00:00:42] Kat Harris: [00:00:42] Hey Zach. Thanks so much for having me. How’s it going?
[00:00:45] Zach Beach: [00:00:45] It’s going well, I’m excited. And today we are going to be talking about deconstructing negative ideologies. And for those that don’t know, Kat Harris is the host of the refined collective podcast and the co-founder of the online publication, the refined woman, cat coaches, and equips women all over the world in dating relationships, singleness, sexuality, and faith.
[00:01:11] Ultimately her vision is for women to know their beauty identity, worth and value, and to experience untapped freedom and joy in their lives, regardless of their relationship status. Her first book sexless in the city will hit bookstores April 20, 21. That’s next month. How are you doing?
[00:01:32] Kat Harris: [00:01:32] I’m doing good. And can I first say that? Your enunciation is incredible. I just recorded my audio book and in that I had to really be clear with each word and syllable. So I think since then, I’ve been so cognizant of how other people speak and you could definitely do audio recordings.
[00:01:59] Zach Beach: [00:01:59] Well, that’s good to know. I do have, I have an editor that does the podcast by always reedit it myself. So I’m listing to myself each time and I’m like, okay, okay, slow down. Pronounced your word. It’s definitely a practice. And thank you so much for coming on. I know you also have experience recording, not just your audio book, but also on your podcasts.
[00:02:22] So I’d love to begin by talking a little bit more about your path and how you got to where you are today. And you actually grew up in Texas, what you called the buckle of the Bible belt and in the middle of sexual purity culture. And as a result, you had a strong, internalized sense of sexual shame. And I feel weird even saying that out loud, because I feel like I’m accusing you of it or judging you about it, but you write about it extensively in your book.
[00:02:52] And you write about being a 35 year old Virgin living in New York city. So what happened, like what brought you to where you are today and kind of. Pulled you out from the state that you were in?
[00:03:06]Kat Harris: [00:03:06] what happened? Where do we begin? Yeah. So like you said, I grew up in Southern conservative culture and I didn’t grow up necessarily in a Christian home, but in the South, Christian is kind of the air you breathe.
[00:03:25] It’s, it’s very common. So even if you’re not. Going to church on Sundays, you kind of know the language. And so I, at some point became a Christian. And when I learned things like good Christians don’t have sex until marriage or guys struggle with loss. And masturbation. And because of that women, you need to cover your body because boys will be boys.
[00:03:53] I had, when I heard those narratives, I never really questioned them because they’d already been so much a part of the ethos of growing up in the South. And I figured these people are telling me what’s true. And so. I went with it and then I never really questioned the sexual ethic that I had. And it really wasn’t hard for me not to have sex because I didn’t date a lot.
[00:04:23] I mean, I just. I was usually friends with the girl that all the guys liked. And so I just didn’t really have a hard time keeping my pants on. And then I moved to New York city almost a decade ago. And in that time a lot was opening up for me. I dated more than I had dated in almost a decade and one year.
[00:04:51] And when that happened, I realized, Oh my gosh, it’s actually much harder not to have sex. It’s when you are actually dating and attracted to the person that you’re with. And I also started doing a lot of therapy and emotional intelligence training and realized how much I had shut down my sexual desire out of shame for so long.
[00:05:11] So kind of waking up, waking up to myself, waking up to these beliefs that I had never questioned waking up to my sexuality and desire and a really new way. And in that kind of got to a place on the heels of a breakup of a fork in the road of all right. It feels like I’m the only human in the universe not having sex.
[00:05:37] And I have no idea at this point, why I’m choosing this path outside of a social script or in sound soundbite that I was given, growing up in this Christian evangelical purity culture. So. I figured I would go on a path and figure out what I believed. So that’s sort of what put me on the path to deconstructing some negative ideologies and rebuilding a more holistic sexual ethic.
[00:06:09] Zach Beach: [00:06:09] So. Your story mirrors. What a lot of people, I think experience when they grow up in a small town is they have a very limited world view. And then they go to a bigger town and they get exposed to different types of people, different types of cultures. And. A lot of people, even in the LGBTQ community, tunnely find people that look and act and are the way that they have always felt inside, but were never able to express.
[00:06:35] So it’s a really beautiful transformation you showed. And you just mentioned how this kind of puts you on the beginning of the path. So what did that path look like?
[00:06:44] Kat Harris: [00:06:44] Well, at first looked like me acknowledging my desire. I think for so much of my life, even just thinking about. Sexual desire. Feeling turned on, seemed simple or gross or bad or dirty.
[00:07:02] And so coming to a place where I started to acknowledge my sexual desire is good. And it’s a part of what it means to be human. And instead of shaming it, what if I got curious about it? And so I think that was the first step for me, was to look at it, look at, look at my sexual desire and look at what was coming up for me.
[00:07:25] And I think often out of external expectation or obligation from. Whatever space we’re in. We can shut down how we really feel because we should or shouldn’t feel or should, or shouldn’t desire. And I think when we should, it, it just shuts down our heart. And so we can’t really, I don’t know that we can truly experience real transformation without giving our.
[00:07:52] Hearts and our bodies, this space to express what it’s actually feeling. And then from that place, we get to decide, okay, how do I want to move forward? Because just because I desire something, just because I want a cookie right now, doesn’t mean I’m going to eat the cookie. I might, I get to make that choice from a holistic place.
[00:08:13] So yeah, so the first part was acknowledging my desire and the second part for me, and this was really. A journey. I didn’t want to go on. I basically decided I want to have sex moving forward. So who in my friend group will support that. Let me go to her and sell her my new plan. And she w she did not give me the answer.
[00:08:37] I thought she was going to give me, and she said, no, I want, I want you to have sex. So you can get on with your life and see that it’s not that big of a deal, but she said it’s meant something to you. It’s months something to you for almost 30 years and you need to figure out why. So go pray to the God you say you believe in, go read the sacred texts.
[00:09:00] You say you believe in and figure out what you believe in, why, and then whatever decision you make, I support it. So I decided I had two options. I could go to another friend that would support me or just lean in and do the painful process of self-examination. And I did that. I started that journey with researching every single verse in the Bible that talked about sex, intimacy relationships.
[00:09:34] I read, I researched, I read books by anthropologists and scientists and Jewish feminists and really everything in between. And I was the girl that was talking to strangers at bars and people on the subway and friends, leaders, pastors, anyone that I could talk to you. What’s your experience been like with sex?
[00:09:58] What is your experience been like with relationships? Why do you believe what you believe about your body and sex and everything? And in that, the more I, the more I asked and the more I researched, the more I, the more I started finding myself, And, and then I looked at my experiences, what would have been my experiences romantically and what has worked and what hasn’t worked for me.
[00:10:26] Does science say anything compelling about sex? So I just got really curious and I’m a why person and started doing a ton of research.
[00:10:35] Zach Beach: [00:10:35] That’s really beautiful. I feel the power in you both acknowledging your desire and also not jumping like headfirst into it. And it’s so important to first release that internalized repression.
[00:10:50] And then you can come from a place of freedom, like not running away, because a lot of people do indeed sort of reject the church entirely, like throw the baby out with the bath water, for example. And they say, Oh, that’s, you know, that’s not me anymore, which is a perfectly valid path for a lot of people.
[00:11:09] I don’t want to say that, like you have to stay in the church that you grew up with, but a lot of people reject the church entirely because of the sex negativity of the homophobia. And also even just the hypocrisy around, you know, watch what the church says and what it actually does. And if we did want to go on that path of.
[00:11:29] Integrating our faith with a more positive system, a more positive ethic, a more empowering way to think about our sex and sexuality for those people that want to go on that path. Just like you did. I’m curious about what is kind of your new understanding of what the Bible and Christianity says about sex and relationship.
[00:11:51] Kat Harris: [00:11:51] Yeah. Well first, I just want to say that, you know, the church has really blown it and like over and over and over and over again. And Christians. Have really blown it and continue to really, really blow it. And I understand why people reject Christianity and walk away and want nothing to do with it. And I kind of joke with my friends.
[00:12:18] Sometimes I’m like, Christians are kind of the worst. Yeah, no. I mean, in the name of Jesus, people are storming the capital, you know, in the name of Jesus. Christians have promoted slavery and the oppression of women and the abuse of power and the abuse of the ostracized and it’s wrong and it’s unjust.
[00:12:40] And so I don’t judge anyone who walks away. I, I really understand that and have space for that. And I myself have been very disillusioned and disoriented at times by what has felt like. A massive chasm between the story of Jesus that I read about in the pages of scripture and the, in the flesh people I meet who say they represent this person.
[00:13:08] It, it to this day feels very confusing to me. Like, am I just being gaslit by the church? Like what the hell is actually going, going on here? And so in that for me, I, I just. In that whole process. I just kept going back to the story of Jesus, who Jesus was when he walked this earth and it just seemed so completely other.
[00:13:30] And so I just, I honestly, for me, I just got curious about that. I just felt like, man, Jesus seems to have a lot of space for people. And Jesus says that Jesus is love is free. And all who are weary and heavy-laden come to me and I will give you rest. Jesus scandalously and provocative was for women in a time when women bear, many women couldn’t even read.
[00:13:58] They weren’t allowed to, they had no rights, politically, socially, economically, religiously. And yet here’s this Jesus guy who is being as having his life’s work. And. Quote, unquote ministry being funded by women. Women are helping run the movement. Women are spokespeople for the movement and Jesus and the resurrection story.
[00:14:23] You know, Jesus, let’s say he’s, God could have revealed himself to anyone in any way. And Jesus chose to reveal himself first to a woman in a garden by themselves. Which if that was, when that was read in context, it would have been like, Oh, that’s where lover’s rendezvous. Lover’s rendezvous in the garden by themselves, you know?
[00:14:43] So, or Mary Magdalene and Jesus lovers, like we don’t really know. But all that to say is I just see it every step, Jesus sort of blowing out of the water, the societal norms and the religious norms of the time. And it seems like with Jesus, there was always a third way outside of the shame and oppression cast both culturally and religiously.
[00:15:06] So that being said, where, what do I believe that the Bible says about sex and relationships? I think I first, like first, and this is me just kind of unpacking for you. The, the, how I got to where I got, I first went back to the beginning of the God story in the beginning of the God story. God exhales creation and the universe into existence, and then, and calls it all.
[00:15:28] Good. And then God exhales humanity into existence and says, humans are very good. And humans, all humans. Regardless of what you look like, what you believe or don’t believe who you are or are not attracted to because you are a human, you have the God image in you, the divine spark pulsing through your veins.
[00:15:49] So just by existing, you matter, period, the end period. And so when I look at that, I see, wow. It seems like we are starting the story at a different chapter. Often the church starts the story with everything’s been blown to shit and we’re all a piece of crap. And don’t talk about sex. Don’t think about sex, but if we go to chapter one, it says we’re a very good, and so.
[00:16:17] That means that not only my mind is good or my spirit is good, or my capacity to have friendship is good. That means my sexual desire is good. It means my sexuality is good and even something in those things can reflect the divine. And so I think that was the first thing that I kind of debunked as. Wow.
[00:16:41] Man, I felt so ashamed about sex or sexual desire and the church, but from the very beginning of the God’s story, it’s, uh, it’s woven throughout. And even when I read the poem, the poem of the Genesis creation account, there seems to be this or erotic rhythm to it. God says it is. So it is good. God says that is so it is good.
[00:17:04] And there’s a buildup and then there’s a climax and the climax is the creation of humanity. And, and then we go on to song of Solomon and the old Testament, which is this erotic four place sex handbook between King Solomon and his bride and the. The text starts out with the bride saying things like, let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth.
[00:17:29] And there’s no place. I want him to sleep except for in between my breasts and let him come to my gardens and feast. Like, what’s she talking about? She, this woman is a woman who knows what feels good sexually, and she’s able to give informed and enthusiastic consent to her partner. And he reciprocates, he says your love tastes better than wine.
[00:17:53] And all I want to do is roll around with you all the night long, and then their friends and family are even in on it. And they say, you guys go be drunk on love. And so I, I felt like, wow. Sex and sexual desire and sexuality and foreplay, none of this stuff is threatening or scary or bad or gross to God.
[00:18:15] It seems like God really loves sex. And so I think getting to a place where I began to reject shame around my desire felt really significant for me. And then I asked, well, does the Bible actually say don’t have sex until marriage? And if it does, do I care if it does? And it actually does say that. And there’s a phrase in the new Testament that is repeated more than.
[00:18:44] 20 times flee from sexual immorality or fortification. And I thought, well, what the hell does that mean? I don’t, I use the word foreign a Cate a lot or ever really. And so I looked up the Greek because that’s what the new Testament of the Bible was written in and Greek and Aramaic and the Greek word for.
[00:19:05] Sexual immorality is the word pornea and porneia is where we obviously get words like pornography and it meant a lot of things. It meant. Beastiality having sex with animals, it referred to pedophilia adultery, and it kind of had this general sense of sexual, any sexual activity outside of marriage. And so I think the thing that felt interesting to me about that is it wasn’t like it didn’t define sex.
[00:19:36] It just said flee from sexual activity outside of marriage. And so I was like, okay. It says that. And then I think what honestly felt beautiful about that as, as I think God really cares about us holistically. So God isn’t like, well, you know, He can touch her butt, but you can’t touch, you can’t touch his nipple.
[00:19:59] It just is like flee from sexual activity outside of marriage. And so in that I feel like there is agency and autonomy for us as humans to figure out what. Does that look like for me, if that’s an invitation I want to lean into what is sex and for a long time, for me, when I, when I was abstaining before, it was like, well, as long as the penis stays outside of the vagina, I’m good.
[00:20:23] I’m following the rules. And then the more I went on this path, I started wondering, what is sex? Is sex? Just penis inside a vagina. Well, what about anal? What about oral sex? Does orgasm have any role with sex? What if you identify as LGBTQ plus do heterosexuals a monopoly on virginity and sex? What if your partner is impotent?
[00:20:51] Does that mean you can never have a fulfilling sexual experience? What if you’re one of these 75% of females? Who can only climax externally through the clutter. Can you not have good sex and orgasmic sex? So all these questions just led me to figure out what do I. What do I consider sex? And do I want to abstain from that outside of marriage?
[00:21:16] And, and I think kind of closing all this up is, you know what I think that the Bible teaches about sex and relationships, like can’t deny that there is an invitation, I call an invitation, not a rule. I think it’s an invitation to abstain from sex outside of marriage. And, and in that nowhere in anywhere in the Bible, does it ever say, if you want a seat at the table, You can’t have sex, you have to be a Virgin.
[00:21:43] And I think I wonder what would happen if we really understood that, that like God’s love is free period. The end you can’t behave your way to God’s love and acceptance for us. Like God’s love is more expansive and bigger than we could ever hope or imagine. And so in that. It’s kind of this bolt and thing for me, like, yeah, the scripture says that.
[00:22:06] And regardless, if you choose to do that or not, God loves you and accepts you and sees you.
[00:22:12] Zach Beach: [00:22:12] Well, yeah, so there’s so much, you mentioned that I’m on to summarize a bit and cover. The first thing that I love that you said is that there are many ways to interpret our sacred texts and this idea that porneia, if I’m pronouncing that correctly can refer to sex, but also sexual immorality.
[00:22:30] And it reminds me of, I was at a Buddhist temple one time and I was reading their handbook and. A lot of people think that Buddhists have to be celibate. Like they have to sell all their possessions and live a monastic life. And then their handbook said, no, we don’t think it’s sexual conduct. We think it’s sexual misconduct.
[00:22:52] So like, you know, do it in the right way. And you know, was saying, actually God loves sex. Just like the sex that we’re not encouraging can be things like, you know, beastiality or other things that pretty much everyone can agree with is not the kind of conduct that we want to encourage. And I also really love your emphasis that.
[00:23:14] The world is good and that humans are good. And these are things that God has said because when a lot of people think of Christianity, they go right to the judgment, right. To the sin, perhaps even like the wrath of God. And they forget about those other passages that say that we know God through love, and God is love.
[00:23:33] And as you mentioned, that God’s love is free for all, all of us and. Finally, I want to go back to something that you mentioned at the very beginning of your answer, because I want to thank you for your honesty of saying that Christians have blown it over and over again, because there just is a lot of hyprocrisy we see kind of in the Christian community, particularly around like people who consider themselves to be followers of Jesus who don’t follow what Jesus actually said. And there’s a lot of, kind of like internet joke, memes around it. Like I’m thinking of one and it shows Jesus. And he’s like, well, if we feed the poor, it will, we move their incentives to help themselves.
[00:24:16] There’s a note, you know, there’s a lot that say like, love thy neighbor. Except if they’re gay or an immigrant or Muslim and. It’s like no love thy neighbor. So our topic for today is on deconstructing negative ideologies. And I’m really curious about how we even gain the awareness of what is a negative ideology, because I think a lot of people that have them don’t see them that way.
[00:24:45] So, how do we become aware of belief systems in ourselves that aren’t serving us and how do we help others kind of see the light or how do we deconstruct negative ideologies in others as well?
[00:24:59] Kat Harris: [00:24:59] Yeah. Well, I mean, that’s a hard one because. I can’t change other people. I can only take responsibility for how I’m showing up in the world.
[00:25:09] I, I can’t, I can’t make you agree with me, Zack, on anything, your processes, your process, and this is where it’s so cliche, but I think it’s so true. And Gandhi says, be the change you wish to see. I get to be at first. And then trust the process, right? I think it has to start internally. It has to start by looking inward.
[00:25:33] I think it’s so easy to get so overcome, even when we’re talking about the hypocrisy in the church, I believe this other idea that what triggers us and other people is usually because there’s the capacity of that same thing within me. And I resent myself for that. So why do I so resent hypocrisy?
[00:25:57] Probably because I’m out of alignment in my own life. On certain things. So I think making, like starting that, starting at personal, I can’t change the church. I can be reflective about my own experience and invite other people into that, but I can’t force someone to want to change. And I think even just looking at the political upheaval in the last year or the BLM movement, you cannot force someone to want to open their eyes.
[00:26:27] You can, you can give loved ones, an airtight argument and the most amazing articles and a 10 step approach to why your viewpoint is more evolved or the right way. And if that person doesn’t want to grow, there’s nothing we can do about that. So, I don’t say that in meaning we can’t change. I think we can change.
[00:26:51] And I think that starts by me looking at my own heart and how I’m showing up in my own life. And, and so how does that deconstruction process start for me? It starts with, how did I get here? What have I accepted as truth? And where did those truth narratives come from? What did I learn at home? We’re talking, we’ve been talking a lot about, you know, sex and relationships, so we can just go with that framework.
[00:27:18] What did I learn at home about sex? What did I learn about at that school and religious institutions in my friend group, from culture. And what were those beliefs rooted in, where they rooted and fear, condemnation, shame control. Typically when the beliefs are rooted in those things, they’re serving us or are they rooted in freedom?
[00:27:43] Wholeness, abundance, hope, love, possibility. Okay. Those might be some narratives too, to be mindful of. And I think another question to ask is who benefits from this belief and who suffers from this belief? So for example, my, my, um, Hmm, boys will be boys who benefits from that belief boys. Well, typically men in power, right?
[00:28:11] Men do men who typically in our patriarchal society have the upper hand who suffers. The vulnerable, the oppressed women, women in our culture. And so if a narrative is elevating the person in power, while adding to the oppression of a people group, then. That might be a narrative to be curious about. And so kind of after you kind of go through this process of where did, what beliefs do I currently have?
[00:28:44] Where did they come from? Are they rooted in fear or freedom? Who benefits from them? Who suffers from them then? How do I want to move forward? Are these beliefs working for me? Are they serving others? And, and, and when I think of the words sin, it’s such a triggering word for me, because I think it’s been, we’ve been bulldozed with it for so many centuries.
[00:29:10] And a friend told me recently, sin is. A decision or action that separates you from yourself, from others and from God. And I was like, Oh, I can’t wrap my head around that. So are your beliefs separating you from yourself, from others from God? So be curious about that. And then from there, how do we rebuild?
[00:29:33] How do we go on a process of rebuilding? Because I don’t think that. The goal is to live in deconstruction. I still need a house. You know, I don’t want a house made of poison or toxicity, but I still need a house. So then I go to what’s my source of truth for me as a, as a woman of faith, a huge source of truth for me is the Bible.
[00:29:57] What else is truthful? Um, my experiences, what my experience has taught me, what has my intuition taught me? What has wisdom taught me? And then what does. Does science have anything compelling to say, is there anything externally through research and pressing in through, through other sources of wisdom that can help rebuild something?
[00:30:20] That’s not rooted in shame, but in freedom. And I think that’s how we begin to take steps towards not only dismantling and deconstructing negative ideologies, but then rebuilding.
[00:30:33] Zach Beach: [00:30:33] Yeah. What I’m hearing from you is that both the deconstruction process and the reconstruction process are inquiries are.
[00:30:44] Looking within and seeking some answers to some fundamental questions. So when you were talking about deconstruction, you were asking, how did I get here? What did I accept as truth? Where did those narratives come from? Who benefits, who suffers and are these beliefs separating me from myself, perhaps from God.
[00:31:05] And I feel like a lot of people would go into that and they’ll be like, Oh, no, like, like these aren’t serving me, these aren’t serving the world. And then you offered some alternative questions in order to begin the reconstruction, which is, well, what is my source of truth? Could it be the sacred texts?
[00:31:26] Could it be. Wisdom teachers, could it be science and could it be research and let’s go into that. Cause I would love to hear more about that reconstruction process because I am curious about kind of what we’re trying to build. So to speak. I use the metaphor of a house, for example. I feel like there’s a temptation to go from one extreme to the other, a one ism to another ism, you know?
[00:31:51] So what does more positive ideologies look like?
[00:31:55] Kat Harris: [00:31:55] Yeah. Um, well, I feel like I can only answer that for myself in my own journey. I think the, almost the big cosmic joke was on me. I went on this journey to sort of prove why I wanted to have sex moving forward, and I actually ended that journey. Spoiler alert more conservative than when I started.
[00:32:15] Zach Beach: [00:32:15] Wow.
[00:32:16] Kat Harris: [00:32:16] I still am abstaining from sex until marriage. And I’m choosing that. And in that it’s from a place of being internally motivated, as opposed to feeling like a victim, to Christianity, like a victim to Christianity. And so like for me it, and I think this is a key, a key part of any process of reconstruction is how can I show up?
[00:32:43] In agency and autonomy and taking ownership over who I am and how I want to move through the world in a space that is honest and in alignment with myself, with my values, with what it is that I want. What’s my vision for what’s my future vision for myself, for my life. And how can I. Only after knowing where I’m headed towards, how can I walk out today with integrity and clarity?
[00:33:10] And so it really, I think a huge part of this process is each person individually asking how can I show up from a place of, of agency and ownership in my life. Whatever decision you do or do not make sexually, politically ethically romantically, whatever that is. And I mean, I thought there was no way for me that I would exit this process, still choosing to abstain it here I am.
[00:33:37] But I think what makes all the difference in whatever realm you’re in is getting to a place where you identify, where am I? Where am I holding onto beliefs out of obligation? Where am I holding onto beliefs because of external motivation? Well, if I don’t play by their, their rules, I won’t have a seat at the table, so I won’t belong.
[00:33:59] I won’t be accepted. I, I won’t have relationship. And I think that that is the moment that feels interesting to me is how do I, how do I kind of surrender the obligation? The should the shouldn’t. The shame and start showing up from a place of autonomy.
[00:34:22] Zach Beach: [00:34:22] It’s very interesting. You kind of in a very Securitas way, came to what we often call is just sex positivity, which is not saying sexist, the best thing ever, and everyone should be having it and having our guys in 10 times a day.
[00:34:36] But what sex positivity is saying is, well, we’re welcoming in the wide variety of human expression, and we want people to have. Total freedom of choice to choose the path that works for them without judgment, without shame. And maybe that path does look like the path of somebody who was repressed, but now you’re choosing it from a place of empowerment.
[00:34:58] And then maybe you are still waiting to have sex until marriage. Maybe you’re becoming a nun and you’re not going to have sex at all for the rest of your life. And it’s about that freedom. Of making that choice, which is a much more empowering than of course being forced into such a choice.
[00:35:15] Kat Harris: [00:35:15] And I, you know, I think the longer I’ve been on this journey of exploration and being curious about my own sexual desire and sexuality and the more that I have a public platform where I get to share those things, the more I almost have empathy or compassion.
[00:35:33] Towards the leader that said just don’t have sex, just don’t do it. My mom used to say nothing good happens after midnight. And I wonder if there are certain, and then I wonder if there are certain times in our lives where we don’t necessarily need to know the why, but that we just need to trust our parents.
[00:35:54] I don’t know. Maybe there is a time for that. Maybe there isn’t a time for that. But when I looked back at my own life, I was like, you know what? Yeah. After midnight. I typically make decisions that are out of alignment with what I really want, whether it’s because I’m tired and my guards are down, whether that’s because I’m a few drinks in whatever it is I noticed, you know, what, that, that has kind of rung true to me.
[00:36:21] And I see how it would be easy to give people a script. Based off of the journey that I’ve been on so that they can make the decision that I’ve made. In fact, it would be easier to do that and more comfortable. It feels harder to sit in this space with another person and say, here’s what I’ve learned and my experience and my journey.
[00:36:44] And I want to give you the tools to figure it out on your own. That feels hard because I can’t control that person. And I think as much as we don’t want to control other people, there is still a part of us that wants other people to come to our side. And even you said, you know, earlier you said, so how can we change other people in our lives to deconstruct their negative ideology is we’re even wanting to control their process of growth.
[00:37:15] It’s just, it’s made me more compassionate, even though I think it is unhelpful to give people a script of do’s or don’ts, there are definitely moments in my life where I want to say, you know, what, if you do go to X path, X path, whatever the path is, It’s not going to end well for you and please learn from my mistakes, you know, or please don’t have to learn the hard way.
[00:37:40] Like I learned the hard way, but typically we have to go on our own journey and experience.
[00:37:47] Zach Beach: [00:37:47] You’re absolutely right. I really appreciate your emphasis on leading by example. Because when you just mentioned, like, yeah, we can’t change anybody. We can’t control anybody. I was also thinking and nobody wants to be controlled.
[00:38:00] Kat Harris: [00:38:00] Right?
[00:38:00] Zach Beach: [00:38:00] Yeah. Nobody wants to be told that they’re wrong. And. That they have no idea that they’re just living in falsehood and they’re not going to even receive that message.
[00:38:11] Kat Harris: [00:38:11] I think it’s important to ask myself, am I open to feedback? Do I have a growth mindset? How do we foster a community or a culture where we celebrate growth mindset?
[00:38:23] Because the fact is I have blind spots as a human there’s certain things that I don’t know that I don’t know, perhaps I don’t know that I’m walking into the fire. And it would be really nice if there was another person in my life who has maybe walked into the fire 10 times say, Hey, I see you’re kind of walking towards this fire here.
[00:38:42] I did that before I touched the stove and I burned my hand. And so I think we do need people in our lives who give us feedback. But I think as you and I probably both know. I can only receive feedback if I’m open to it. So I think sometimes I, w I curious about is how can we foster or develop communities where growth mindset is a core value, because I don’t want to be right all the time.
[00:39:13] If I’m right all the time, then I probably have a very small truth, you know? And so how can I put myself in positions where I can. Be given feedback.
[00:39:25] Zach Beach: [00:39:25] No, it’s something that has come up quite a few times on the podcast is how important having a growth mindset is in our relationships is that we want to become better partner.
[00:39:37] If we want to become more loving, more, kind, more intimate, better at communication in our relationships. Otherwise they turn sour. So, thank you so much Kat for coming onto the show and sharing us your story. It’s so interesting and fascinating, and I really love you being firm about living your truth, because I do feel it encourages others to also live their truth, even if it goes against the grain or even if they try as much as they can to go against the grain and then they end up in their truth.
[00:40:08] Being right along with the grain. Again, I want to finish by asking you a question. I love to ask all of my guests, which is quite simply, what do you wish everyone knew about love?
[00:40:22] Kat Harris: [00:40:22] I think that there’s an endless supply. There’s way more than we think. And we have access to it. We always have it’s our birthright.
[00:40:32] Zach Beach: [00:40:32] Absolutely. Thank you so much, Kat, for coming on to the show for our listeners who want to learn more about you, how can they find you?
[00:40:41] Kat Harris: [00:40:41] Yeah. So if you want to learn more about my book, that is sexless in the city book.com and my website and my social media is the refined woman. And my weekly podcast is the refined collectives.
[00:40:55] Zach Beach: [00:40:55] Wonderful. So thank you Kat for coming onto the show and thank you listeners for listening to the show. We hope you remember that after midnight. Nothing good happens. No, I’m just joking. There’s always those moments when you’re like, dang it, mom. You’re right. Anyway, it’s just getting listeners. We want you to remember that there is a divine spark pulsing through your veins that God created the world so that it is good.
[00:41:24] God created humans and said they were good and that you are good there. Isn’t. Endless supply of love and your path of deconstructing negative ideologies is one of inquiry. One of asking questions like who benefits from this belief that I have and who suffers from it? And your reconstruction process involves living fully and firmly in line with your truth.
[00:41:49] Not anybody else’s, but yours. What is in your heart will guide you to where you need to be in this life. If you want to learn more about me, you can head to Zach beach.com and learn more about the show@theheartcenter.com. Thanks again, Kat.
Kat Harris: Thank you so much for having me I’m so, so grateful to be here with you.
